Episode 3 - The telltale signs of a suspicious death

Speaker 1

Welcome to Cambs Cops Our Stories, the podcast series that delves into the Unseen World of policing in this episode we're joined by detective inspector Lindsay Harbor who talks to us about the process involved in investigating sudden deaths. From the methodical search at the scene to those tell-tale signs that something isn't as it seems, Lindsay explains what officers are looking for and the role they play in determining the circumstances of somebody's death.

00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,960

[Music]

Speaker 2

So Lindsay um what the police police um when do police get involved in a sudden death and what do the first officers at the scene do?

Speaker 3

Okay so police attend I think people expect that we only attend murders um but police actually attend all deaths that aren't expected within the community um so if someone dies at home and they're elderly but it wasn't expected we will attend um we also attend any suicides or any 

deaths where they are unexplained um so the reason for police attending is uh in in the main to rule at any third third party, any Foul Play or any suspicious circumstances and once we're quite happy that there's no suspicious circumstances we act on behalf of the coroner um and we'll complete a coronial file um ready for any potential inquest that might take place.

Speaker 2

And when would a DI like yourself get involved because I assume that not all scenes require attendance by yourself?

Speaker 3

Yeah absolutely so we will attend if if there's any concerns by the attending officers at all then we will attend to give advice and support um we would also to attend if there's any suspicious circumstances um if there's any questions that are unanswered that the officers feel they they can't get to the bottom of and  things like overdoses will always attend just to rule out any any Foul Play.

Speaker 2

Okay and how many scenes roughly would you say you would attend a week?

Speaker 3

So it's quite a difficult one because we do the duty DI role so one you know one week you can go to non um for example last year I went to six in  24 hours I've been to two already this week and we're only on Thursday um so it completely depend uh there's just no answer to that one really.

Speaker 2

Six in 24 hours that is some some demand what what's  that like for you over that period of time?

Speaker 3

Uh it is very demanding it's emotionally draining um but  

you need to be there to support the officers and families so it's kind of expected with our role unfortunately.

Speaker 2

And do you remember the first time you attended the scene of a sudden death what was  that like as a young officer?

Speaker 3

Yeah I do so I was I was a special for a short amount of time before I joined the police I was probably only about 18 um and it was a chap who had an epileptic fit it  fit in his bed um at home and I'll never forget 

it I don't think you ever forget your first one I don't I don't think you could get any of them actually so um it was odd because it's the first  

dead body I'd ever seen um but I think that you just you go there that you do the job and you come away again and try not to think too much  about it.

Speaker 2

Yeah I mean obviously all of these deaths are a tragedy in their own way but do you almost become desensitized to it?

Speaker 3

I don't think you do I don't think I don't think you can because I think when you're dealing with the job you try and take yourself away from it you be professional and you do the inquiries you need to do but I think always  in the back of your mind you know that there's families involved in this you know you're going to have to pass that message onto them you know you have to do the best for the deceased person  so I don't think you ever become desensitized. I think you probably take yourself out the situation  a little bit more um but never desensitized I don't think.

Speaker 2

No okay um and at the end of a 24-hour period where you've attended multiple scenes, like this week, um like this week yeah um do how do you  

switch off at the end of the day because you must put your head down at night and have these scenes going through your head or or do you get used to that side?

Speaker 3

Yeah I don't again I don't think you get used to it I think you learn to cope with it um I'm a busy mom of two lads there's a lot of football that takes place a lot of trashy TV um and and I think I'm so busy out of work that I just kind of I push it to the back of my mind until the next day.

Speaker 2

And I assume lots of this you can't really discuss with your children?

Speaker 3

No my children are uninterested anyway in what I do um no but no you definitely can't discuss it with people.

Speaker 2

And do you have to think about your welfare because obviously this can this

I think most people, there would probably be thinking this would get them down quite a bit if they were  doing the same job?

Speaker 3

Yeah I think you do and with experience I think you you do learn to deal with 

things but we do have things we've got TRiM um so trauma risk instant management uh so if you go to particular traumatic incident we do get referred to TRiM if you want it for any sort of counselling um we've got well-being Champions you can speak to and colleague so there's always support there um but again I think you just learn to deal with it.

My biggest concern when I go to a job I've been in for 22 years now so I have seen a lot I've dealt with a lot and I can I can deal with it myself but my biggest concern is the officers that are there and their welfare um so it's really important to check in with them to make sure they're not struggling.

Speaker 2

Yes yeah, um is there anything personal that you do I mean exercise or  just just playing with your children or any tips?

Speaker 3

No I've got a dog that I walk.

Speaker 2

A glass of wine?

Speaker 3

Sometime a glass of wine every now and then yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2

Um and just going back now to when you uh first got got into this job have you always wanted to be a police officer and particularly a detective or was it something you moved into?

Speaker 3

Yeah I wanted to be in the fire brigade.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 3

And I didn't get in so I thought what next so I applied for the police and the rest is history. Um I think a lot of people are career detectives they decide early on that's what they want to do very much for me I just I love policing like helping people so for me it was never about being a detective I just kind of fell into that really and I'm just happy in the role I'm in now.

Speaker 2

Yeah and I mean what what would you say to people out there who are maybe considering policing as a career?

Speaker 3

I would say do lots and lots of research, know exactly what you're signing up for um a lot of the recent recruitment  we've done it's clear people that are coming in aren't really sure what they're going to be dealing with um I think people need to be aware it is traumatic it does impact on your personal life um and just do the research really um but it's a great career and I would recommend it  to people if if they were looking um for a job that's going to help people with some variety.

There's jobs within a job that you can apply for so you can be a detective you can go to traffic, dogs so it is a good career.

Speaker 2

Yeah and was there anything in particular that inspired you some people say it was a family member some people say it was you know a TV program was there anything  in particular inspired you to become a?

Speaker 3

I hate to be that person but no no it was just because I  didn't get in the fire brigade yeah I mean I'm quite happy it went that way cuz I love my job but no it was never never for me yeah.

Speaker 2

Um so just going back to um scenes of crime and particularly sudden deaths um obviously people would have all seen the depictions on TV there's not a night goes by when we don't have a some kind of detective drama on. um how does that um how does real life compare to those TV depictions of a a sudden death and a investigation?

Speaker 3

Yeah so dramas are very much a drama it is very rare um some of some of the jobs you see where someone's died it's very rare that  they depict anything that's not a murder anyway on TV because it it wouldn't be interesting I don't think as a drama um but the things that that make people laugh are when you have for example high ranking officer in an interview with someone um which isn't necessarily the case so I think they I I do think they're quite good I think they they they draw the line quite well with the sensitivity  as to how we attend jobs and I think they do depict it relatively well now with officers attending uh crime scenes tape in place scenes of crime um you know on route so I do think they do quite a good job um not necessarily accurate but it's not too far off.

Speaker 2

Okay and um is is there a process that you go through at a scene just just to be methodical?

Speaker 3

Yeah absolutely so I always keep an open mind when I go to a scene and and there's there's regularly jobs that I go to where you know  you you'll hear something on the radio and you you as you're driving there you've got a thought  process to what you think might have happened um your phone's constantly going I tend to do checks on intelligence before I leave so I know exactly where I'm going to um to find out about a bit about the person about the location to see if we can kind of get a picture um as to what might have happened and then I always attend the scene get a briefing from the officers to find out what we know so far um and if there's any if if there's if there's someone in situ in anaddress and we don't have to be concerned about anything so the officers have been in they've  searched there's no other people there I will wait for scenes of crime to come before I go in so that if there are any suspicious circumstances we're not going to ruin our crime scene. But I always  work with the building blocks um so looking at scenes evidence whose our deceased if there are any suspects I'm always thinking about um forensics any fast track action so tasking out house to house CCTV um but for me it's what have we got when we get there, what do I then know as the inquires are coming in and they're reassessing it and starting again until we kind of get to the bottom of what  might have happened.

Speaker 2

Yeah and just you mentioned forensics how important is forensics today?

Speaker 3

I think it's very important so for um for all suicides um a scenes of crime officer has to come out so families that can be quite distressing because they don't understand but essentially where they're just to rule out that there's no third party involvement um we do have mercy killings  um where someone might be terminally ill for example um there has been the past across the country suicides that haven't been suicides they've been covert murders been made to look like suicides and I think certainly for families and for us it's really important to know exactly what's happened um so forensics is is really key even if it's just taking photographs of the scene and documenting  that for the for the coroner for any inquest.

Speaker 2

That's interesting covert murders um obviously many sudden deaths will be non-suspicious but what type of things would set alarm bells ringing  if you were at a scene?

Speaker 3

So I I think it it tends to be around what we know about the people so if you've got any domestic history within the household that would initially raise some red flags for me um when they were last seen um the state of the house any injuries that the person might have because some injuries come naturally there might be some blood pooling there might be some bruising um but any particular markings to the body they they might cause some concern for  us.

Speaker 2

Yeah okay and um on a similar theme, are there times when things appear to be suspicious but turn out not to be are there any case you can think of where we've had that?

Speaker 3

Yeah so I I have I have had a couple and and one um certainly sort of within the last 24 months I I had an incident where um a a person was found deceased at the home address um they had quite uh quite a few stab wounds um the property was insecure so on first first glimpse and and sort of briefing from the officers think oh God this  is this is awful this is it sounds like it's going to be a murder but like we're saying about the initial assessment of scenes and and and they're getting the information and the scene will  present to you what has happened and actually I I think it's is a bit cliché but the thing you think  has happened is normally what has happened right um so for example with this one albeit there's numerous stab wounds and it did depict on the face of it a murder scene when you look  at all the history of someone with mental health problems uh numerous suicide attempts a lot of self harm some significant self harm the picture comes together and you realize actually it's not as it seems and that was tragically a suicide.

Speaker 2

Yeah that's clearly a case where keeping an open mind absolutely is key um on the other side are there any times when you've had um a death that appears to be non-suspicious which has then turned out to be suspicious?

Speaker 3

I mean I haven't personally but but  I know they have happened um you know there has been a couple recently um where there has been some suspicious circumstances not necessarily a murder but there's some circumstances that have  come to light that might be suspicious but again I think these are the cases where if an officer attends and they're unsure they'd call a DI and we would come out and we'd assess what we've got and and try to get to the bottom of it.

Speaker 2

Yeah so that's the guidance for officers call a detective rather than necessarily recognizing the scene as being suspicious themselves?

Speaker 3

Yeah I think any suspicions whatsoever the officers will contact us and we will attend always.

Speaker 2

um so are there any rules that you stick by any sort of golden rules such as not jump into conclusions and you've mentioned  that already but are there any others that you stick by?

Speaker 3

I mean I think I think for me like we've already discussed it is letting the scene tell the story so I never jump to conclusions just keep an open mind at every job and just keep on thinking about your decision- making and as the  evidence comes in review what you've got review what you've already been told and then come to the conclusion um so yeah for me it is it is very much about keeping an open mind.

Speaker 2

Yeah and there must be a lot of pressure there at the start because as I understand it there's a golden an hour when you really need to gather evidence um is that how it feels?

Speaker 3

It it does very much so um and I only this week when I turned up to a job I had a couple of detectives with me and I said I got there there's police cars everywhere there was the ambulances there and the pressure you feel because I've been there as a a PC myself many many years ago where a detective arrives and you think oh thank God  they're here we can relax a little bit now cause they'll take over so you do feel that pressure that everyone is waiting for you to turn up and sort of take over and make the decisions so it can be quite a pressurized environment but again I think as long as you're meticulous as long as you're looking at the evidence and you you take the time to gather what you've got gather your thoughts I think everything is it always turns out all right in the end.

Speaker 2

It sounds like a tough job. what what keeps you what what motivates you in the mornings to come in?

Speaker 3

I I love my job yeah I do deal with a lot of sudden death and and don't get me wrong it it does it does have an impact on you  I mean I I am very of my own mortality in the last 24 months um the amount of suicides have gone to your deaths as you get older I think you do start to panic a little bit that this could be you but I think that that really motivates you because you think you just want to do the best for the family and do the best for the person that's died um and just make sure you get answers for people because there's nothing worse than leaving a scene or leaving a death and families not knowing  what's happened so for me that is my motivation especially in this realm of work.

Speaker 2

Okay well thank you very much Lindsay for spending his time with us today and enlightening us on uh sudden  deaths.

Speaker 3

Thank you very much

[Music]

Speaker 1

Thank you for listening to Cambs Cops our stories. If you enjoyed this episode subscribe to our YouTube channel where you can find new episodes and previous series. To keep up to date with the force's latest news follow us at CambsCops on Facebook Twitter or Instagram.