Catching a paedophile

Speaker 1 (00:06):

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Cambs Cops: Our Stories, a warning at the start of this podcast that it features content. Some may consider only suitable for adults today. We're going to be joined by DC Kev Foxcroft from the child abuse investigation and safeguarding unit. We're going to be discussing the case of Anthony burn, a serial paedophile who is jailed for life in July, 2021 to serve a minimum of 20 years. We're also going to hear from one of the victims who has bravely agreed to share her story. Plus we will start today by telling us a bit about the Anthony burn case and his offending.

Speaker 2 (00:44):

Okay. Yeah. I mean, burn, um, I'll refer to him, by surname, it is all he deserves quite honestly. Um, he was a sexual predator. He offended for the best part of 40 years, um, against young children talking, you know, rapes of, of young children of, of primary school age. And in the case of one of his victims, this went on to adult or he's manipulative, he was a predator or is a predator he's. He would get involved with families, friend people, you know, he'd identify vulnerabilities in the families. And I think that's one, one of the things that was very clear from the offset and the investigation that, um, the people he was targeting all had vulnerabilities within their family dynamic in one way or another, whether that was, you know, poor parenting or whether or not there was financial issues within families, whether there was social issues within the families, he was exceptionally good identifying those weaknesses.

Speaker 2 (01:38):

And that's what he targeted. You know, he would get in with the families, he would, he would befriend the parents. He would, uh, be that great neighbour. Next door he'd be that, you know, uh, lovely step he'd buy presents. He'd do things in the case of one family, big family that was, um, obviously, you know, not affluent in, in themselves. They wanted to do some work on a house. He couldn't afford it. You know, who could, um, you know, it's not no money in the, in the pot as it were that you got to know him. Cause he was a name that came up and he came round and offered a quote being Burn. He said, don't worry about that. I can, I can sort you out. You know, I can do that for you really cheap and all the rest of it will.

Speaker 2 (02:17):

So you can help me to the father. You can help me do this and just learn. And everything about him was, was this amazing blow bird, just come to help the family. So we did all this. Um, and then he stepped away from this particular family and this family I'm talking about, he one of the Cambridge victims until about, I think it was about 12, 18 months later when the family watched some more work doing on the house, of course, who did the go to that awesome fellow who gave him a very good quote? And again, he says, right, there's lots to do, but don't worry about the money. We saw that out. And that's when he started, he would help, you know, pay for I materials. They did this extension, he did all that. And all the while, while this was all going on, he was getting friendly with the children.

Speaker 2 (03:00):

He would buy them presents. They would go to his house. The parents had nothing but trust him because let's face it. He, he was everything that, you know, he seemed like, great bloke. Well, that's what it is. He's a manipulative, evil individual. That's that's the day one. That was his, you know, that was his intention. Sadly for the, the young girl of the, the family. She got Burn's attention. And it wasn't long after that, that he started sexually assaulting her, um, his, his house. He would rape her. You know, she, she was about 6, 7, 8 years old. This went on, this went on about five years, you know, totally oblivious on the family's point, you know, no fault of their own. He was a family friend, the little girl, what would she say to people? You know, she was worried. She wouldn't be believed. Um, she had older siblings, you know, Burn, you know, a time they'd all go around.

Speaker 2 (03:52):

All these kids would go around together. And as the kids got older and became teenagers and sort of like got in his way of things, um, he started to, to sort of stick the, the knife in, as it were by making up things about them and, and saying about the behaviour and all this. And eventually he drove a wedge between the younger girl and her older siblings to the point where they'd stopped going on and seeing him, she continued to go because obviously that suspect, oh, you knows a bit like, yeah, go around and see him and stuff like that. And this is what was happening. Of course, it came to the age where she was 12 years old. And then in February this year, she, she finally plugged up the courage. Um, and I don't think, you know, I can't be under, you know, under overstated even, um, to tell her mum, um, about what was going on.

Speaker 2 (04:43):

And it was, it was like a hammer blow, wasn't it? You know, didn't know what to do. She was absolutely gob smacked by all of this, but the important thing is she’d. And that's that's, you know, that, that us, the, in as a, that she police that's when we, we became aware of you, that was one victim. There was other victims in C that we know about that came forward as a result, this 12 year old girl having the courage. And obviously before he moved to Cambs in the nineties, he lived in Newcastle. That's where he comes from. And all the while from very much, when he turned an adult, he was offending against young girls and that went on and went unnoticed. Because again, he got involved with families, he was a friendly neighbour next door. He manipulated parents. He identified where the weaknesses were and that's what he did.

Speaker 2 (05:33):

And unfortunately, because you know, his manner, he was very aggressive in his manner. Um, he would make comments to them about he's done this to people. He'd threatening people and it put the fear of God in them. They're not gonna say anything. You know, these people come from, from families that, that have got their own issues, you know, so they were too scared to say anything. They worried what he'd do to them, what he'd do to their families. And as a result, this went on and on and on and on in February this year, like I say, these 12 year old girl told a mom one phone, the police. So as his, as his normal policy, um, uniformed officers went out in the first instance. And I have to say at this point, um, the two officer that went out the names now were absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 2 (06:16):

And I, and I think that's, that needs to be mentioned in this because quite often, a lot of the uniform do get a bit of criticism nowadays, especially, you know, the workload that's going on the course for servicing that these two officers took the time out to make sure that they engage with the victim. You know, I I've seen the body worn video of, of that initial engagement. And it was a horrendous situation for them both to, to be put in. They've got the victim there. And, and so with mum, mum’s just completely in disbelief and yet the office has engaged appropriately and they got the information, they got enough information to identify what was going on through to their skipper, you know, and they took some, saw some good advice at the right time. Then obviously it then comes through, you know, are we unit?

Speaker 2 (07:01):

So as a result that initial contact and building that trust, the moment that coppers walked in the door, we had a start for 10. So that, that was that. And, and that, so that's how we came to light in Cambridge. So the, you know, the game was at that point for him. Cause obviously this had been discussed in our department when the job came in. I remember that it was a whole team effort. We had an interview team, a colleague myself. We did interviews once he was arrested and there was other members of our department were interview teams with the victims. They went out quick, sharp, um, and got some fast, fast moving, best evidence, video interviews from our 12 year old victim. Um, the other girl that we found was a potential victim. She was engaged with by officers and she made disclosures of offences as well as a similar nature.

Speaker 2 (07:47):

And then was, was, was supportive knowing that the other girl was had come forward. She felt that now was the time, you know, to step up if you like. So there was lots of stuff going on that initial 24 hours we already been in custody. I think the thing that, that, that stood out that day was when we started doing all that work, we had him in custody, we had the children safeguarded and we started making plans around, you know, what we needed to do next. It, it comes a bit of a surprise when we did the background checks on him to find out that he was actually on court bail for significant number. I mean, five victims offences in, in north and the day that we were interviewing. So he was interviewed, sorry. He was arrested the previous evening. This came out following day.

Speaker 2 (08:28):

When we, we took the job on, he was due in Newcastle Crown Court for a hearing. Obviously he didn't attend that one cause we a look chat with him, uh, which went down well. I'm sure we go to the OIC up north, uh, DC, Hagging-Bottom. I was talking to him, obviously there was a lot going on in background now. So we now we've got this guy that we've got for two offence, uh, two victims down in Cambridgeshire. We now know that he's got a number of victims up in, in Newcastle that he was, um, he was on bail for, we find out that the hearing is due that day was for him to, to form. We put a plea to two other victims who had come forward later on north. So it was quite a, an intense 24 hours out. Obviously we would've gone on, we didn't want him out on conversation with the, the, the officer from the north.

Speaker 2 (09:14):

He, um, he informed was that, uh, during the interview stages previous with him, he'd gone, no comment. So we were sort of expect, I, me and my colleague DC, after we were expecting a no comment interview because of the nature of the offences. And I mean, I think with, because the nature were non recent offences or north, it was, it was worth a shot to him. He, he, I imagine he thought, um, you know, these, these from like the early eighties, right? To the mid nineties, no forensics, nothing like that. Uh, just witness testimony from the victims and other people. So he thought he is worth short, isn't it? So that's where we were sort of geared to us. We did a, a know, I plan with him expecting lots of questions. And then what through was completely initially, um, was when we sat down to interview and we asked him the questions, did you, did you do this?

Speaker 2 (10:02):

Did you do that? He started making admissions, which you expect the unexpected in interviews. I would suggest, I don't think either of me or my colleague were expecting that and that completely threw us. And I think it threw me solicitor as well. It was dialling in because all of the sudden is on the phone going, right. I need to stop. I need to start, need to stop. I need chat my client. OK, that's fine. So we leave and then we come in, come back in and he says, I've been told to go. So we back to back on what we expected now, but we were, I rubbing our hands together is, is, is not the right term and suppose, but like, we were surprised that we'd got these, these admissions now. So we got something. So we came away from that. Obviously we did bit of work through, we worked quite late that, that night, but luckily CPS decision maker was good.

Speaker 2 (10:49):

We got remand remanding, which was obviously then supported by day at court. So that was the initial initial sort of carnage of the office that day. And it wasn't, I have to say it was an old all hands in. It was, I mean, we got several small teams within our department, um, and everybody just moved in, you know, and it's great. And that's, that's the one thing I love about working in CAISU because, you know, we don't have the, you know, the resources, some of the bigger teams, it's a case of jobs in you are in just crack on with it. And I think because it's child protection, because it's, you know what you're dealing with, everybody knows that you don't go into child protection, you know, just because you think it's, it's not, it's not firefighting job, job, job, job, job. Um, you go in there cause you do wanna make a difference. So it's really positive in there when you get a good job, you know, like that really, really big job. There's no issue. There's no complaint. There's no moment. It's just like that. Let's crack on. Let's get, let's get him remanded and let's go, let's get these kids safeguarded. And that's, that's basically the day that's the first day. And, and what was

Speaker 1 (11:52):

It like dealing with Burn? Was he kind of how you expected maybe before you were in this kind of role? What was he like as a character to deal with?

Speaker 2 (11:59):

Character is quite a nice term. Very corporate. I mean, on my background before I came into this job, I was a prison officer in a high security prison at Whitemoor in March over just near side of Huntington. And my first five years in that role as a prison officer was actually working call them vulnerable prisoners, basically sex offenders and, and people of the like, and because it's a maximum security prison or high security prison, you're dealing with people with significant sentences. I think the per sentence I ever dealt with in think you 17, 17 years or something like that. So that's what gives you an idea? The level of people. So I dealt with people that every day, you know, I was under no illusion. What, what paedophiles are like? Um, I've a manner of them, some exactly like, or others, but one thing that they all have in common to a degree, one way or another, they're very manipulative.

Speaker 2 (12:52):

That's what they do. They manipulative with a controlling mechanism that they have threatening mechanism or the poor always me, you know, I'm, I'm the victim, the, you know, old guy that sits in the, at the of the day, manage it with their personality. So I wasn't expecting anything to surprise me when I'm dealing with that. And Burn came across. He there's no emotion there. He didn't, he didn't care. He, he really didn't. And I don't suppose he still does. Now, you know, that that's him. He was for for years, he got away with doing the most horrendous things to these children. And you know, not just in this country, such was a level of trusted built with families. He took the girls, some of the girls to, to, to, you know, to, to America, the Disney world, places like that, such was the trust and work he did on those families.

Speaker 2 (13:45):

And he offended over there when he took him on holiday. You know, he didn't, he didn't care about anyone but himself what he wanted, what he was getting. And it's just like that. I know I can't swear in this, this interview, but if there just no humanity in him at all absolute base individual, I, I, I, I know who've said before, and I mean, are you manipulative, evil and human and stuff like that, but he's just an emotional as predator. He doesn't care two hoots about anybody other than Anthony. But, and that was very clear. And when, when we interviewed him, you know, he was, he was quiet. He was cooperative. He was quiet. He was sat there. There was no emotion until the point when we started challenging him a little bit with some of the question and they weren't oppressive, but he were not allowed to do that.

Speaker 2 (14:36):

But we challenged him on, on the reasons why. And all of a sudden, we were very good faced with this guy where all of a sudden, he felt like he was evicted and I'm like, I'm not having no, no, no, that's not happening. You're here. Cuz you're the suspect. And you've already had made admissions. You're far from the victim. I'm asking you reasonable questions. But as soon as he was challenged, knowing that he couldn't intimidate and threaten me and my colleague, cause he had no control over it. He didn't like it. And that's him all over. You know, he has his control over people, whether it's apparent with a drink problem that you can manipulate, whether it's poor financial, he can manipulate whether he is just someone who's not the personality to, to stand up to him like the children weren't because at the end of the day, crying out loud, their children. Now these nine year old girls should be playing with dolls and things like that. They, they shouldn't be being sexually abused in, in his home and being so fearful of him that they're too scared to tell their parents. Yeah. That's why I won't refer to him as a human cause. He's to me, he's not that person, he's not human. That's an individual that just happens to breathe the same oxygen the rest of us does.

Speaker 1 (15:41):

Yeah. I mean, you've kind of spoken about this a bit already, but how do you offenders like Burn operate? How do they operate and, and do what they do?

Speaker 2 (15:49):

It's it's about control. Our society says, I mean, we all know don't we, society says what's acceptable and what's not acceptable now. I wasn't, you know, my upbringing wasn't wasn't if it weren't from, from, you know, my moment, family members, you know, we, we were brought up on a, on a council estate up north, you know, we have a lot and there was always people that were there to help and all the recipe and, and you were always glad of that help. And I think that's, that's what people like him do. And, and like I say, I've touched on it before, you know, he gets, and he sees a weakness in the armour of the, the family, whether it's a wo you know, a single parent family that maybe there's issues there. So there's a bit of a OUS relationship between the parent and a child.

Speaker 2 (16:31):

Um, and he can be that friendly neighbour. That's both there for the parent, but oh, don't worry. I'll, I'll, I'll basically get some on, I don't, you know, go easy on your mom. I'll get, I'll get you a nice lawyerly or whatever. Um, so he builds that trust with the child. He's that great. He also parent sees that. Now, if you've got a parent that's struggling a little bit, she sees that as a, you know, or he he's a solution to a problem, isn't it? So before you know it, you know, this, this, this doesn't just happen overnight. This is built and built and built and eventually it's the, I need to go. Would you mind looking after such and such or something? It's great. It works. And that's it. That's the door in there because after that, it's not long after they starts in the case of another victim down here, uh, one viral non mission bless her.

Speaker 2 (17:14):

She was a single parent. She had, you know, she had a drink problem. She, she, she readily admitted her and he worked as a bar in, at a local club. He saw this lady saw that she had a dog. She would come in with her, saw the situation that this lady did targeted her before. You know it doing exactly the same. Again, he formed relationship with this woman ready access to the child straight away. Who's gonna believe that. And then again, the victim like himself already spoken about, you know, the family that just, you know, to do their best, to do right by their children to bring them up. And I have to say, having worked with, with all the families, the one family, you know, this particular family stands out is, you know, they are a very, very decent family socially. They're just, you know, whenever I went there to do victim work with them, it, it was a pleasure to, to go and speak to these people.

Speaker 2 (18:05):

And it, and it was quite difficult to step back when I did, but such was a family. They look after their, their kids and do their best plan, but without a lot of money. And when someone comes and said, oh, I'll do this work for, you know, and then, but then he did what he did manipulate. He was ready. He was playing a long game. He stepped away for 12, 18 months knowing that there was a conversation that was had at the time when he did these little bit of renovations that I wouldn't mind when I've got a bit more money. I wanna do some more, oh, well, yeah. Give us a shout mate. It'll be all, you know? And, uh, that's exactly what happened by which time he was this great bloke who was done a good job, got him with the kid going there, bang.

Speaker 2 (18:41):

And before you know it, he's got the kids doing Jo, been paying them. And like, I've already said, once the kids got too old and he worked to target the younger one, he drove a wedge between him three game fair on. He went and that family bless him. Absolutely devastated when this all came out because you know, they would, they blamed themselves. Why didn't we see this? Why didn't you talk? It was awful for him. They're not to blame. They didn't choose any of this. There's only one person responsible. And that's, he, he played longer. He'd been like this game for about, about four years before we managed to nail him or people come forward.

Speaker 1 (19:16):

And can you begin to explain how difficult it must be for the victims in this type of case to come forward and kind of related question, really? Do you think lots of abuse? Like this goes unreported?

Speaker 2 (19:27):

I don't think if I'm, if I'm totally honest, I, I, I can't even begin to imagine how difficult the victims, and I'm not just saying this because it's the, you know, it's the, the line that should be used. I've been in this role now for going or four years. And, uh, I, I genuinely don't know, um, how difficult it must be. I've never been in that situation. I can't begin to imagine the, the conflict in the victim's heads that's going on. You know, because with people like burn, they, they destroy everything. They believe in they, anything that they feel they can go to that trust. Who could I go to, to keep me safe, to make me safe? It, it, he destroys it all. He absolutely destroys it all. So what's left. Their first view, I would think is no, one's gonna believe me. Now.

Speaker 2 (20:13):

Everybody says, you know, you know, well, why didn't, why didn't they report it sooner? You dunno what's going on in their lives. You dunno what threats have been made? You dunno what the family background is, what the social dynamics are. So it's easy to sit back from the outside, looking in and be judgemental. And there's a lot of judgemental people in the world today. Sadly, these victims, there's no timeframe on it as to when they can come forward. We have victims that come forward the next day, the same day, we have victims that come forward the next month, the next year I had to do an interview. Uh, it must be nearly a couple years ago. Now 35 years before a victim was ready to come forward. We worked with her. The guy was sent to prison for five, five and a half years at the age of 91.

Speaker 2 (20:57):

So victims have so much trauma to go through so much conflict. And for me to sort of say how difficult it will be, how, how difficult it's for them to, to come forward. I think it'd be really disrespectful in a way, because that's not for me to say a victim will come forward and the victim's ready to come forward. But I think what's important is despite what you might read in the media nowadays, um, which is, it seems that with social media coming online and things like that, it's a free for all to criticise. There's a lot of desktop warriors that are quite happy to sit behind a keyboard all day and have an opinion on everything. And I'm very helpful. And, you know, and being a police officer these days, it's its probably the hardest time to be a police officer cuz you know, you, when you're not at work, you looking at your news real on your, on your phone.

Speaker 2 (21:40):

There's somebody's you know, having to pop with the police. Sometimes it's justified. I'm not gonna go all that. But sometimes it is usually five, but we're not nowhere near a real, like some of the people that get through the problem is these victims we've already got enough trauma going on in their lives. See that as their first thing, where's the trust in that they should be comfort police and trust that we're gonna help them. And what I would say to any victim, however old you are is we, you know, we are that help believe, you know, don't believe anything you read like that. You need to come forward, but when you're ready to come forward, you know, we will help with support. We will talk to you. We will believe you. That's the important thing, you know, you will be believed. We there's, there's lots of avenues that we can do putting support and you know, sometimes a victim will come forward.

Speaker 2 (22:28):

We will have those conversations and then they'll think I thought was ready. I'm not fine. We're not gonna push anybody into doing anything they don't want to do with, they're not ready for it. But by coming forward, what we can do is we can get it all recorded on our note, you know, on our records. Even if you don't feel like doing an interview at that point in time, we can get stuff recorded. So we've got a record. We can also with other agencies, which I' talk about in a little while, but in longer term support, that's independent of the police as well. They're not alone. That's I think the important thing to do, but that hardest thing for them to do is take that first step. And that's a really important thing. And if you were to ask me, you know, should you come forward? Absolutely come forward, talk to us and we'll have a, you know, a proper conversation about it'll all be around the victim's wishes, you know, but it is, it is. I can't describe how difficult it must be for 'em. I've not been in that situation.

Speaker 1 (23:24):

And, and given that and how you've described that, what'd you think of the victims in this case and the fact that they, they did come forward and have, have done what they've done

Speaker 2 (23:33):

At the most vulnerable time of their life. They've said things in front of their parents that they no child should ever have to say in front of the parent God sake. No, what no adult should have to say never mind a child that's, you know, pre puberty or you know, not minding the secondary school or, or reach the age of consent. You shouldn't be having these discussions. So for them to draw the courage from, from within to actually do that and then to have someone like me walk through the door. Now, I don't know what people's perception of are over a child protection officer is, but I doubt it's an 18 stone bald-headed tattooed northerner. Okay. So for Gru to walk in a door or Shrek or whatever, and that's, I saw, again, it seems to work with them. It breaks the ice for them to engage like that. And to, to, to trust me to do the right thing by them, you know, that just, it just goes beyond respect. It's just the, the, the just, you know, if, if my, my, my daughter can grow with half the strength of character and courage that these girls have got, I'll be one very proud dad, I'll be honest.

Speaker 1 (24:40):

And you mentioned a bit before about the kind of support services and other things that are available. Can you just expand a bit about

Speaker 2 (24:47):

That in the case of this job with Burn? I mean, from the, from the start we, we obviously, we had the SARC who we were assisted with holistic medicals. Cause while the, while the offences were all non-recent, um, you know, we wanted to make sure that these girls weren't didn't have, you know, issues as a result of being, being sexually abused. So we were able to sort out holistic medicals, the SARC book, hospital. Fantastic. I mean, can't speak highly enough of them. Um, and they do that initial medical, the support is fantastic there and they will sign post the victims, the survivors, what do you wanna call them, um, to other agencies, but we also have children social care. They were there from day one. We, you know, we put the referrals in on day one section 47 joint visits were agreed. So we went out and speak to children, both social care and police, you know, to see, right, what can social care do?

Speaker 2 (25:36):

What support can they put in place? And, you know, they are, they all the other things and avenues that, uh, that aren't open to us. So that's, I think it's important. And I want that definitely want, you know, that, that social care, you know, do a lot of good work as well. And then they should be each other, do recommended, recommended for that. Um, but more than that, and, and certainly more than the police side of it, I wanna mention the, the people rape crisis centre and also the Cambridge rape crisis centre. And, uh, they call them ISVA if therefore adults and cheers if they're for children. And it's basically an independent sexual violence key worker, what happens with them is when we have something like this come up, you know, we put in a refer, we speak to the victim first, cause he may not want it.

Speaker 2 (26:14):

You know, it's all about consent at the end of the day and what the victim wants. And we offer them that support for them to be talked, spoken to, or contacted by, by a child ISVA, who will introduce themselves, explain what, what they can do, what they can offer. And, you know, it's independent of the police. That's, that's the beauty of, and this is how I always say it. You know, it's completely independent of what we do as police. What you discuss with them is confidential. You know, with the exception that if there's concerns around harm to anyone then obviously, and their duty bound and that, that breaks any sort of confidentiality sort of thing, if someone's gonna come to harm as a result of what, what they're told, but they, they will basically do home visits. They will build up a rapport with the victim.

Speaker 2 (26:54):

If they wish to wish to engage with them, they will arrange this counselling support or the, with the support, you know, that's completely independent of us and what that does for us, cuz when you're doing an investigation like this, you know, you can become very focused on getting the evidence. And obviously while we're doing this job, you know, you've got all the investigations as well. So it's nice to have that support because before you might get questions from the victim that you may not be able to answer. And like I say, they can talk about what's going on. You know, you know, the victim can talk freely without thinking, I'm writing this down or I need to take a statement from you or things like that. They can have those conversations knowing that it's in confidential setting. And the, and like I say, the combined rate crisis centres in came shift phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (27:43):

You know, we have a fantastic working relationship with, with them and you know, they, they will work with, with the victims long, be up long after sort of I've walked and step back. And in this case, you know, I know the, the, the cheer Amelia, she's brilliant. She's, she's still working. I speaking to her yesterday and I've stepped away. We, you know, from the family is about a month or so after, after the sentencing here and we, we agreed and this was the cut-off made sure everything's in place. Speak to Amelia yesterday about another one mine. And she's still talking about being involved with these girls still. So even though I've gone, she's are still there. And, and that's another thing for the victims. They there's someone out there that is specifically there to talk to them, to support them, to believe them, that isn't a police officer as well. And that I want that, you know, that's really important cause I don't think they get the, the, the, the kudos, the, the, the, like the police and, and other professional agencies get. So I think that's really important that they get that acknowledgement.

Speaker 1 (28:40):

Definitely. And in terms of this particular case, I mean, how did it feel when you knew that that Burn had plead guilty and then eventually the 20 year sentence? How did, how did that feel?

Speaker 2 (28:53):

Um, when I found out he, he was going to plead guilty, I think the word is buzzing, absolutely buzzing, but it was mindful that I, um, I had to manage the victims as well, because all I wanted to do was tell them and say, oh, you know, cause all I could think of was we weren't gonna have these young girls put through the, the, the crown court process. I mean, we have special measures in place for them. And then we would never have had to face that evil in court as such, but you know, there have been video links and things like that. And, and, and the fact that, and I don't even think it was his last remaining shred of decency in his body that made him plead guilty. I think it was more to do with the fact that if he plead guilty know he was gonna get a lesser, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:43):

And I think he was, again, it was all about him, what was best for him? So I'm under no illusion that, that he was doing it as one last, last decent thing, cuz there's no decent in his body. But knowing that those girls weren't gonna have to go through a cold process, I, I was buzzing for today's night. I, I know that night I didn't sleep away. I was just off when I was, this is great news, but until I kept it quiet because what I didn't wanna do cause of the way he operates, he can change mind right up under the day of the court hearing. So we left it until I knew damn well that he had pleaded. I was a good day, good day in the office. And I was wasn't.

Speaker 1 (30:19):

And what about the sentence? I think it was 15 years initially and then extended to, to 20. But what your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (30:24):

Well, I just correct you on that. It's actually, he got sentenced to life imprisonment, so he's got a life sentence, right? So what he got was the tariffs. So the way it works and I'm not a choice, cause obviously I don't earn enough money, but when you're gonna get sentenced to life imprisonment and the options on the table, and we had an inkling because I'd seen some hearing schedules that had been sent down to me from previous hearings that the judge had been made aware of certain piece of legislation did not ask me what it is, not Scooby drawing his attention to this piece of legislation. Now, when someone's gonna get sentenced to life, the judge has to tell them that if he wasn't gonna give him life, this is what he will get. And the judge told him on the day of the sentencing, he would've given him 30 years.

Speaker 2 (31:07):

So the way the legislation was, the judge could give half of that as a tariff. So that's the starting point. So he gave him, he said, he's given him life sentence, but he said, had you not been going to for life? Um, I would've given you 30 years anyway. So that means I have to set a tariff and that can't be lower than half. What the original determinant set would've been hence a tariff for 15 years being ex prison officer. Like I say, I mean, some people thought, oh, that's not very much. And it was a little bit of that conversation. But as I explained to one of my victims, mothers who was with me from lively from at the time afterwards, I said, no. I said, trust me when I say this, I said, you gotta look at how old he is now. I said, you gotta look at the fact that he he's got, got to do 15 years before he can even apply for parole, you know, before even gotta think about that.

Speaker 2 (31:56):

So that chucks him into his seventies and that's of course, if he gets out, you know, he's so he's not a given. And from my experience at white more, very few. I, I, I thought, I can't think of one off the top of the head in five years of working with these, these individuals, one that got out on, on that tower, that first tariff date. So that that's that. So his life sense, but then it was literally, um, I can't remember. I think it was about it wasn't long after it was maybe a couple of weeks later. So I went on, I went on annual leave literally the day after the sentencing, I went, I'm very happy. And I come back to find out, there'd been another hearing, just an email from CPS of north. There'd been another hearing and we'd had these tariff increased to 20 years.

Speaker 2 (32:36):

So I'm like that, that's the sort of email you want come back from leave to, to be fair. And um, and what I'll scratching head as to what this was about. And, and from what I understand that the law recently changed in regards to sentencing around those types of offences. And whereas, and I think he's only coming in the last year or so from what I understand and, and basically they're not allowed now to, to give half it has to be twos minimum. So that's why he got 20 years. So now even better, he's got 20 years before he thinks about coming out too nearly. So yeah, again was, was a cracking news to, with the victims. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:16):

One of the victims has bravely agreed to speak to us. We've used an actor's voice in this clip to protect her identity. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate it. And perhaps we could start with what it means to you to know that Anthony Burn has now been convicted and jailed.

Speaker 3 (33:33):

It's made a big difference for me in the way, I think what I hadn't noticed before is that I was always looking over my shoulder, thinking that I might bump into him or he might come back and get me somehow. So knowing that he has been put away now and he can't hurt me again, means an awful lot. Also the fact he's been put away means people have heard what I and others had to say and they've believed us, which makes a massive difference. You spend so long thinking, nobody's going to believe you. So knowing that he's been put away makes me feel so much safer. I wasn't making it up. It's not something I just invented in my head. It happened and people believe us.

Speaker 1 (34:13):

What did it feel like after the court process, knowing they had been convicted and that received such a long sentence, how did that initially feel?

Speaker 3 (34:22):

It's just a massive relief. It's like a huge weight has been lifted off my back. And I don't think I realised how much I was carrying. It's just a huge relief. It was a good feeling known. He'd got a sentence that he deserves. It was a good sentence. Not just a slap on the wrist.

Speaker 1 (34:39):

If we can just, um, perhaps go back a little bit. What, what impact did what happened have on your life?

Speaker 3 (34:45):

It completely took over and ruined my life. It ruined my childhood. I have no good memories of my childhood. I'm sure I had good experiences, but everything has been overshadowed by that. And I can't get past it when I look back, that's all I see. And it just took over my whole life. That whole period of life seems like a waste of time. What happened shouldn't have happened. And it seems like those years were wasted. When I look back, it seems like nothing good came out of that period. I have no good memories from a large chunk of my life. That time when you're actually meant to be developing and learning life skills and making good memories, other people can look back and reminisce. You know, if you're sat around talking, this is what I did as a child. This is what I did in college.

Speaker 3 (35:31):

This is what I did as a teenager. But I can't do that because when we have those types of conversations immediately, my first thought is to shrink inside myself and think I can't talk about that period of my life. So I'll either avoid or change the conversation as a result of what happened. I didn't have friends. I'm not close to family. I don't have any friends that I was friends with in school because I didn't get close to anyone. It was only afterwards that I was able to make friends and get connections. I basically didn't have a life during that period. That was the impact.

Speaker 1 (36:09):

So what's life like for you now,

Speaker 3 (36:11):

Life couldn't be any more different going from a non-existent life in fear, terrified all the time, thinking that you are not worth anything, that everything is your fault and that no one will love you to. Now having lots of friends. And I do have someone who loves me. I have a husband, I have a good life. Now I have things that I enjoy doing. I know that those people love me and care about me and would never hurt me. I don't have to be in fear anymore, even more. So now he's been convicted.

Speaker 1 (36:43):

What would you say to an adult? Who's experienced abuse as a child, but perhaps hasn't come forward yet.

Speaker 3 (36:50):

All I can say is it was one of the best things I've ever done. I probably wouldn't have said that a year and a half ago. And even when I was going through the process, it is genuinely one of the hardest things I've ever done because you're having to go through everything. I'm not going to lie. It is very hard, but the result of the end is absolutely worth it to get your life back. You try and box it away. There were years where I didn't tell anybody what had happened. You try and pack it away and think, oh, just forget about it. There never goes away. And you always have the shadow in the back of your mind. You've always got problems associated with it once it's out. And you've had that release. Even that first conversation with a police officer, just to get it out in the open and then say, okay, I believe you, it's just a huge weight off.

Speaker 3 (37:39):

You've been bottling it up for so long. So to have that release, having someone else carry the burden, which is what the officers did in my case, they really helped me along with that. It's massive. You may probably find there are other victims if you come forward and that will help. We know it's hard to prove things, but if you have more people that does help and it's got to start with someone, like I say, it's honestly one of the best things I've ever done, just to get your side of the story out and for someone to believe you.

Speaker 1 (38:11):

And what signs do you think parents and carers should be looking out for?

Speaker 3 (38:16):

That's a really good question, but also a really difficult one to answer because everyone is different. Some people might act out, some people might go into themselves. Firstly, is there a change in the person? Is there a change in that child? Were they normally happy and loud and now they're much quieter or did they used to be quieter? Now they're acting up. I'd say it's more important to have a really good relationship with the child where they're happy to come and talk to you don't have any subject off the table. A problem. I think we generally have in society is that subjects like child abuse or sexual abuse are such taboo subjects that nobody wants to talk about them. For example, if there's something on telly, say 24 hours in police custody, and it's about a certain topic, some people say they don't wanna watch it because it's too upsetting. If the message we're giving out is that we can't talk about that because it's such an upsetting subject. Then the child is not going to want to discuss it, but they don't want to upset anyone. So I think it's just about making conversations more open and allowing them to talk to you about anything and not having any topic off the table.

Speaker 1 (39:26):

Thank you so much. I think it's such an important point. Being able to have those conversations and to be open with children. Uh, thank you so much again for joining us today. It's been so powerful to speak to you, and we really hope that this podcast and hearing from people such as yourself, will encourage other victims of crime to come forward and seek help. So, uh, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (39:46):

You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (39:49):

Moving on to your, your role specifically then can you tell us a bit more about what that entails?

Speaker 2 (39:53):

Yeah. So, so in the child abuse investigation unit, um, our role is predominantly safeguarding about protecting people. I think that when you first come into the role of child protection, so it's not a role I I'd ever considered. You know, a lot of the roles within the police are about basically getting, getting the bad guys in, getting them locked, dealing with getting everything, child protection. It's a bit of a bit of a different track you take. And, um, it takes a little bit of getting used to don't get me wrong because it's not necessarily about that priority, overrides everything he's safeguard and protecting vulnerable kids and, and adults. Cause we deal with adults for non non recent offences. We deal with an absolute spectrum of offences. We, so you've got this job, which you'll suggest it's the higher end of it. And then to, to the, basically down to the other end of it, where you've got parents who have had an argument with the, with, with the child, lost the temper and smacked them, child's reported that.

Speaker 2 (40:49):

And then, so we deal with that as well and sort of like, so we've got and end everything in between one of the other parts of the role we do. We, we do a lot of partnership work and we work a hell of a lot with, with, you know, children's social care. We get referrals coming from, from schools, college years from healthcare settings and, and other other sort professional agencies, uh, volunteer organisations. SPCC people ring them, then it'll come through to us. So we work hand in hand with, with social care will go out on what the call section 47 joint visits, um, which is where a social worker and a, and a child protection officer will go out to, to an address to the school, whatever, speak to children about what body is over that's happened and doing what they call an initial contact.

Speaker 2 (41:29):

And we'll just ask very general questions to, to get a feel for the dynamics of what the situation is and, and trying to establish if there's been any, any offences. So that's one of that. We do quite a lot of that. And a lot of our work generates from those as well. Now it's not all about pulling people in arresting them and, and setting bail conditions or remanding them and all the rest of it. There's a lot of out of court disposal nowadays because you know, it's not a black and white world child protection a lot, especially with COVID, you know, you look at this, the sort of stuff that's going on at the moment, people stuck in where they wouldn't ordinarily be stuck in together. People being made redundant people, losing their jobs, people dying. It put an immense amount of pressure on families, um, you know, social groups.

Speaker 2 (42:09):

So it's not always right, proportionate for us to start going from peace to nuclear. So we, that's why we work with children's social care a lot. And a lot of the time, you know, these families just need a bit of help. So when we walk in the door and they think, oh my God, you know, social worker police are you, first question normally is you're gonna turn my kids off me. Well, 99% of the time. No, but generally the times that we do do that, and it is a very rare occurrence. I say, they already have an idea that that's what's gonna happen because we just don't do it. There's there's a build up to, to this happen. So there's other options open to it, you know? So we'll do out of court disposals be that community remedy, where they have to work with social care or they'll have to do some sort course to address whatever the problem is.

Speaker 2 (42:53):

There's conditional caution, similar to our thing, maybe a little bit more, you know, there's all sorts of little things. So, and we can normally we can put that help in place for families and we can walk away and then leave it with social care to monitor. And in the case of a conditional caution, for example, if the person has been issued it who's agreed to it and doesn't do it. It essentially gets ripped up and we go to court and then they can speak to the magistrate about and take the chances. So we deal with all sorts of that. And we also do, uh, initial child protection conferences. Um, again, since COVID, it's, it's all teams meeting now, but basically when, when a child referral comes through for, you know, for whatever child protection concern there is, he'll be assessed. And then there may be as a result of concerns raised, there may be an initial child protection conference arranged that's arranged by social care service level agreement is we have to provide a, um, a representative that's normally myself or one of my colleagues or DCs in our unit, and then we'll attend.

Speaker 2 (43:50):

So, you know, you'll have the, the social care there. The social worker will have health who have education, um, any support groups that are already in place, family workers, things like that. And the police and we all sit together or on zoom now, cause it is with the parents or the involved parties discuss what the concerns are, go through, absolutely everything through that. And then at the end of it, the decision will be made whether or not that child or children go on a, a child plan, be that for, you know, neglect or physical sexual abuse, emotional abuse, or whether they're a child in need. And then we can just put some sort of that early help in there, which is a lower level to child plan or whether nothing we normally have, you know, one or two of them every day, Monday through Friday.

Speaker 2 (44:31):

So their, their, they, I mean, they can last between an hour and a half and sometimes three hours depend in an you're there. So that takes, that takes up a good portion of your time. So with that, you get social care involvement. So yeah, and then obviously on top of all that, we get our investigations as well, which come through the normal crime recording system or live jobs that officer are attending such as, as the Burn job. Um, and then we investigate. So there's a whole plethora of stuff we do. And I think sometimes people don't realise that. And you know, you say child abuse or child protection to people that don't work in that environment and all things, oh my God, I can't deal with that. What I would say to ring us up, <laugh> talk to us, you know, and we can, we can, we always help people, you know, because at the end of day, the job's coming to us, we want a decent handover.

Speaker 2 (45:20):

So if you he's a five minute, 10 minute phone call, you're never gonna get  I'll say that to officers. And you'll never get criticised for giving as a ring. And if you do, then you need a speaker. So want a supervisor goes, would there help people? You know, I mean, at the end of the day, if you can get that initial contact, initial engagement, like we had with burn, those two officers from den that went to burn, did a blinding job, absolute blinding job. And if we can have more of that, it helps us down the line when we are having to do video interviews with children and things like that, evidence gathering. So, yeah, so there's, there's a lot, a lot, you know, we, we, don't just swan around with social workers, you know, there's a massive spectrum, what we do. And I have to say, it's probably, it's no, probably about it in my 13 years of policing. It's the best job I've ever had. It's awesome. Absolutely awesome.

Speaker 1 (46:06):

Um, within that spectrum of, of offences, you've just mentioned there you do deal with some absolutely horrendous crimes, you know, involving children. Um, most people would ask, you know, how how'd you do it? How'd you, how'd you do your job?

Speaker 2 (46:18):

I <laugh>, how do I do my job? Well, those that know, man, I know that we are listening this down the line. Now again is a little bit swearing in the office. Maybe I call it venting. They call it ranting, whatever, but all joking aside. Um, absolutely what I will say is I can't do it without, without my wife, my daughter, um, I'm exceptionally lucky. Um, you know, I'm not gonna mention her name cuz that'll just embarrass her, but she's a diamond, you know, I don't talk about my job at home really much when these COVID kicked in. I don't like working at home, sitting in a conservatory where my, my daughter lives, her home dealing with child protection, having it, put a paper on the door with a red cross on, in the conservatory so that when she was at home, she knew not to come in at that point.

Speaker 2 (46:58):

So I, I was speaking to someone or dealing with somebody on my computer and I didn't wanna run through and maybe hearing or seeing or a green cross or a green tick on the door saying, yeah, you can come through. Cause I'm doing something. It doesn't really matter. And I, I like to keep my work life one side of a very, very thick black line, my whole life on the other side of that. But I don't discuss stuff with her because one's not appropriate anyway. Um, and also I don't wanna be sharing that, that with her. And I certainly don't want, my nine years got here like an elephant. So I don't want to hear all she thinks he's daddy, health children. But my, but my wife, she understands that now when I've had a, a bad day or a heavy day at the office or the, the eight hour shift, that's turned into a 16 hour shift, there's never any criticism.

Speaker 2 (47:40):

She knows I'm grumpy when I'm tired, it's what happens. But she's always there, always there. And I know she's not judging me, she'll support me. And it doesn't matter. You know, if I finish at 10 in the evening or three in the morning, despite me telling her, go to sleep, she'll sit up and wait, what can I say? I I'm a little girl. You know, I'm not a moral Crusader. I, I come in and do my job. I come in to do my job. So I like my job. I enjoy my job. I get a kick outta my job because it's one of the few jobs in the world that you actually do make a difference. A lot of people talk about making a difference, but words, anybody can talk. Well, I actually go in and try and make a difference and whatever the criticisms are, you know, if my little nine year old girl, can I go out the door morning and get my hug from her, get back at whatever time for bed, knock, left bed, get my hug. You know, how was your day, daddy all really busy. You want some chocolate? It's little things like that. And if I can't go out my door in the morning, having the opportunity to keep people like her safe and others like her schoolmates safe and people like that, how the hell can I expect others to do it? I don't sit right with me. I've got the opportunity and the privilege to be able to do that. So why not? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:52):

And, and what gives you satisfaction in your role doing, you've kind of explained a bit about that then, but, but what does give you that satisfaction within your role?

Speaker 2 (48:58):

I think I've just covered it really. I think, you know, knowing that to some, not all, you know, some battle you can't win, but you do make a difference to people's lives. I mean, I, I get a real buzz out of getting the little, little emails, you know, I get a little buzz out of this job. And if you do end up listening, I mean, I got a lovely, framed little print of a picture. And from one of the victims of this, with some lovely words on it, I'm not an emotional kind of guy which might surprise you, but I'm not embarrassed to have made it. When I got down open the card that was written with it, I, I couldn't speak. I was absolutely choking. And I came away from it up thinking, you know what? I'll take that. I'll take that all day long.

Speaker 2 (49:42):

And yeah, it took a bit of a while to come down after that. And I took pictures of it and I sent it to all my family, cuz I was really shocked and I thought, you know what, whatever happens now that girl now trust, trust the police and I'm not gonna, cause obviously we, we talk about obviously the, you know, victim say the word, so I'm not gonna mention any names, but this particular victim she'll know who she is when, when she's hearing that. But she calls me detective. So she'll know who she is now. She's now doing things. And she wants to, you know, she wants to be a couple when she grows up, there is all her engagement with us as a force. That's as corporate, as I get was as a force, the experience that she's had and what we've done for her, she's now at the point where she's now thinking, this is what I wanna do. And do you know what, if that, and what's happened to her 10, 15 years down the line, she becomes a police officer goes out to a job like this. She can turn what's happened to her into a, you can sit on a sofa and say to a victim. I understand what you're going through. I know what you're going through. This is what we can do. That's worth more than anything. So yeah, that's, that's that I think

Speaker 1 (50:58):

Definitely. Yeah. I mean you, you've spoken about the fact that you able to make a difference in your role and thank you for making that difference. Thank you for the role that you do in your colleagues do it's. It is

Speaker 2 (51:07):

Massive. It's not just me. There's, you know, there's when I think we're up to staffing someone, tell me if we're not, but you know, it is a small team, you know, we've got little sub teams within the department and everybody everybody's the same. If it was, if it wasn't me sitting here, it someone else in it. Oh I'm hopefully probably not as bluntly as me probably, but you know, that's what we do and what I would say to people, you know, and even if you've not considered, I'm not recruiting self, they don't get paid for it. But if someone is, it does end up listening to this and thinks, you know what, actually that's that sounds like, you know what, when there is keeping outlook for vacancies, go for it, mate. I, I honestly love you. I, I used to be on uniform. I would bit of a reputation. People still laugh at me now doing its role, but you know what? This, this nothing touches its role. And I'm like I say, looking, I said about support earlier. I didn't forget to mention I'm actually lucky. Cause my, my colleagues on my team, my peer support is phenomenal supervision and you know, sometimes you know what the supervisor I've got.

Speaker 2 (52:06):

Yeah. I ain't going anywhere. Not chance.

Speaker 1 (52:08):

Brilliant. Thank, thank for your time today, Kev really appreciate it. Thank you to Kev for speaking to us today and also a special thank you to the survivor who shared her story. If you've been affected by the content of this podcast, you can visit our website for more information to make a report. And that's all for this episode of Cambs Cops: Our Stories remember to subscribe to our YouTube channel. So you don't miss the next instalment.

Thank you for listening.