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Like many people struggling with loneliness after the breakdown of a relationship, retired dentist Simon Frost from Soham, turned to the internet looking for company, friendship and possibly love, but it didn’t work out as he’d hoped.
Sadly, Simon’s story is all too common.
For many lonely and vulnerable people, the person online may be the only person they chat to all week, so even if they suspect something isn’t quite right, to speak to that person is better than no one, so it can be very difficult to break the cycle.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to a new series of ‘Cambs Cops: Our stories’, in the coming weeks we'll be covering a whole host of topics that we hope will give you a greater insight into policing in Cambridgeshire. If you missed the first series, you can catch up on our YouTube channel. Today we speak to Simon Frost who sadly lost thousands to romance fraud. Simon lives alone in his home in Soham and started talking to people online because he felt lonely. Unfortunately, the people he was speaking to weren't who they said they were and began to take advantage of Simon and started asking him for money. We also speak to cyber and fraud prevention, officer Kate Thwaites who's been working with Simon and other victims of romance scams to help them through their ordeal and offer prevention advice.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So, first of all, I was just gonna ask, can you tell us a little bit about, um, how you came to online dating, um, you know, what led you there?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Loneliness fundamentally? Um, I was living in Southern Spain and I was there for just under 30 years. I came back here having left, uh, a wife in Southern Spain, mostly because my daughter lives in Spain, which is where she was actually born. And, uh, I came back, uh, and during this period, I started chatting to people online, which is, I guess, the normal way that this happens. And it just developed from there, there were actually three different, lots of people, two of whom I subsequently discovered were actually in talking to each other and they had a go at getting at me through the local court team Ghana. And this was two lots of, of two different groups. So, um, there are a pretty sophisticated bunch.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
And so which platform were you on?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I used email and Skype.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
And what was it obviously before you knew who they really were, who this person really was? What attracted you to her?
Speaker 3 (02:50):
That interesting question. I'm not a hundred percent sure. It was just somebody that I could chat to on a one to one basis and be friendly.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
How did things develop, you know, how did she sort of build that friendship with you?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
We chatted on an almost daily basis for a period. It developed very quickly into showing interest in, in each other, giving conversations about family life. I, I mean, I learned on two of them, I learned all about their family and, and what their life was. One of them, how true it was. I don't know. After a couple of months turned out, she was employed by the world health authority. I think she was pretty genuine, but again, I don't know. She was supposed to be flying to Sweden to the, uh, world health authority, uh, annual conference that she was going to spend a few days with me here. She was told again, I don't know. Uh, she was apparently, uh, attacked on the way to the airport and was killed in, in the, in the taxi.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
And this is what you've been told.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
This is what I've been told, how true it is. I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So I can only imagine that must have made you feel really upset and sad. Having, having built up a friendship almost
Speaker 3 (04:57):
I was looking forward to her coming and, and looking forward to meeting her. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And so you say you sent money. Was this quite large amounts initially, or did you do it more than once?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
This first one was not large amounts apart from anything else? It didn't go on very long, but I did send a couple of hundred pounds supposedly for her mother who lived in, uh, Argentina.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And I'm guessing when they were requesting money, was it for quite emotive reasons? You know, what were they requesting the money for
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Literally weeks, weeks before it came up and, oh, you know, you mentioned so and so, and it goes on from there
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Is that what makes seem genuine, that they sort of seem to take a real interest in yourself and your life and they can, you know, remember details and things like that. Would you say that's part of, of what makes them seem so genuine? And perhaps some people may not realise initially that they aren't who they say they are.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I guess we all have the same sort of background. I wasn't brought up by a family that, uh, ever really treated me really in, in a very circumspect way. Uh, we hear a lot about family love and that sort thing, I didn't get any of this, uh, right from, well, really from, I was in boarding school at seven, wasn't allowed to see anybody at school except once a, uh, holidays of course were at home, but seriously friendly in there that make sense. So I developed a very early lack of attachment, uh, particularly to my father who my, I worked with more consciously than my mother was like me became diabetic fairly early on and didn't handle it. Well, she really didn't.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Would you say your upbringing then in terms of almost a lack of love, would you say that's maybe driven your desire to, to make new friends and, and to see the good in people?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I was also born dyslexic, which in the early fifties, nobody understood had no knowledge of it whatsoever. The school didn't understand it. They kept me going until I was what, 13 and threw out, which wasn't really very helpful to anybody, least of all my father chatting to the head after all this and fine. What do I do with him now? He had no idea. He didn't understand what dyslexia was, how it could be with somebody like myself with a, with a level. And he really had no idea. I was then sent off for, for a year at Millfield, which, uh, is another one of these famous boarding schools. This was not the, uh, the senior school. This was the, the, the junior school. And they didn't understand any of this either. So I, I just ran into a, a, a long selection of problems. I haven't managed to teach myself how to, uh, to work towards understanding things. I didn't get any, uh, GCEs as they were called then until I was 19, under half. And by 23, I had a qualification as an auctioneer in after three years. Um, again, not with people that understood that. I, and I still don't understand how, but I found a way of learning.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That's amazing to do you that with, with your dyslexia and your upbringing and your background and how, how you've got to this point, do you think that's, that's led to perhaps perhaps being vulnerable to people online? Do you think that people may target you and were they aware of your background at all,
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Or interesting. I hadn't quite looked at it that way, but the, I guess in a way, yes. I mean, this affected me until, or about five years ago when I got back from Spain and I started to think about it. I mean, in the meanwhile I'd, I'd also given up, uh, auction and gone into dentistry and, and became the dentist, took me a long time, but, uh, I spent best part of seven half years training to get there. Cause I got there.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
And would you, when you started the conversations with these, these women that you believed you were having friendship with, um, were they aware your, of what you had done as a career? Were they, were they quite keen to know about your finances and stuff like that?
Speaker 3 (11:59):
No. I mean, they obviously realised that I had money and, um, as Dave said to me, they started gently, you know, a hundred pounds here, a hundred pounds there. The second lot of people that took me on really went to town, I was made to in theory, married this girl, which was all, which is how we got involved with the local authority, because they managed to get, hold of God knows how a copy of my birth certificate. I was sent a copy of their birth certificate, uh, which was absolutely correct. And they used that again. I don't know what they did, but this girl and her mother went off and actually organised, uh, to get a wedding certificate.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Why? And so obviously you didn't want marry this, this girl, this wasn't plan. No,
Speaker 3 (13:32):
No, but in the meanwhile of course I paid, God knows what, including a period when she was supposed to be to England, didn't turn up, was rest in the, this is the story I got again, was arrested in the airport and I had to pay to get her outta there.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
And this is the sorts of thing. In order to ask you for money, this was you, the usual sort of thing they would say, they'd be in crisis. For example, like you say, they'd need bailing out or something like that. That was, that was when they normally you for
Speaker 3 (14:17):
You name it and soft nature. My, my whole rational behind all this was to help people who were in trouble. I did not at that stage realise that any of this was a, a trouble thing, nothing at all.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So you just wanted to make some friends to, to, to ease the loneliness. And as a result of making these friendships, help them out, if they needed it
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yes. And eventually to meet them and, and see whether there was any reason for continuing.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Absolutely. And if you don't mind me asking, you don't have to answer this. How much have you paid these people over the, the course of the time that you've been speaking with them?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
The one we've just wound up, I've paid about £27,000, uh, the one before that considerably more, uh, because that was all tied up with getting married and, and, uh, apparently her sister was shot, uh, by somebody as I was told.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So
Speaker 3 (15:58):
They, again, I, so much of this stuff, I don't know as any degree of certainty, but it was all very, very plausible.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And how did it make you feel when they, when they were telling you these stories, you know, of a sister being shot and one of them being imprisoned, and I guess, like you say, you are, you are really kind and generous nature. It just pulled on your heartstrings, I guess.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Absolutely. Uh, I didn't stop and think about it and that's the truth of it. And I didn't with the one that we just finished as well. I didn't stop and think what on earth is going on. I still strongly believe that this, this was actually the first one, uh, that has dragged on for 10 years. The amount I've paid were for most of the time, not that much, although it has got more lately, it's only over the recent weeks that I've seriously thought about what was going on and why.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So are you starting to think now, are, are you becoming aware that these people may not be who they said they were? And these stories may not be true
Speaker 3 (17:37):
The, the first lot, yes, that became very obvious when two different groups got together and they started chatting to me from the courtroom in, in, in a crowd, Ghana. And I had been there because I went and reported somebody who I don't even what it was, but I blocked them from something. Uh, this was somebody that, that was supposed to meet me at the airport. And we discovered that this wasn't right before I actually left. So I actually got there two days before I said I had went back to the airport, was picked up by this guy and taken to his van where upon he was arrested.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I was gonna ask, and this, this into this point, I know deep down, you still probably want to believe these people are genuine, but at what point did you report this or, or raise the alarm or did a family member raise the alarm, that there was something suspicious or not quite right?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
My daughter, primarily my eldest daughter, she has taken on my overall care because I'm, I'm, I'm having trouble with eyes. I'm having trouble with ears. And, uh, she decided that she didn't want to get into a mess later on if I oh, and I was also diagnosed with the Alzheimer's on one sort or another, and, uh, I'm taking drugs for that. That's the only drugs I'm taking apart from instrument, because I've avoided that. And, uh, she decided quite rightly because her husband is having big problems with his father. And she made sure that I have got paperwork proving that I have to making decisions for
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Sounds sensible. How did, when you have to say to your daughter or, or to, to us, to, to someone like Kate, you transferred big sums of money to these people, you know, and, and I've not got it back and I've never met them. How did that for you
Speaker 3 (20:35):
With the recent one, which is where Kate came into this, I'm still not convinced completely that this lady is real. Uh, she may be real. She may not, and I'm not a hundred percent sure about that, but I've gone along with, with what Kate and, um, uh, this character Dave talked about and we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
And how have you found the process, um, working with Kate and kind of investigating these people and, and trying to find out the truth. How has that been for you? Has it been quite difficult?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
It's not in my nature to take other people's advice twice like that. I prefer, I've always preferred with a, uh, a high degree level. I've always preferred to work things out for myself. I realised that, uh, I'm not in a realm where I understand, I don't
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And so Kate, if we can come to you now and ask you a few questions, what I would like to ask is whether Simon's experience is something that you see often with, with, with romance fraud cases.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Yes, it is. Yeah. So, um, we normally find that someone will perhaps go on a dating site, uh, maybe because they're lonely, you know, their, their partner might have left them or passed away. Um, and someone will kind of target them and just very subtly get information. So, um, if they learn that perhaps someone in the family's died, they might assume that you've inherited some money. And it's just, it's really, really subtle. It can be over a number of weeks and months while they're gathering that information. Um, before they actually start asking to take money, but we find a lot of people who are lonely or they're isolated, and the person online they're talking to might be the only person they chat to that week. So sometimes even if we speak to people and, and point out the dangers of it being a scam, they'd still rather carry on because to talk to that person is better than not talking to anybody.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You, you develop a very close relationship with these people. I mean, you are sending them money for goodness sake. So you've got to believe if you are reasonably sensible. I mean, we, we've all always heard of people who decide after three days of chatting that these people need their money. I never did that.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
It was a longer period of time before.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
No, no. I mean, the first thing with this latest one was that I sent an air there for her to come. Uh, I even went to pick her up <laugh>
Speaker 2 (23:55):
She never arrived.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
She never arrived.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
So how did that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I believe there was a good reason for it, and she was very quick to come up with good reasons for it.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So Kate, from your point of view, what are the main signs that all is not well?
Speaker 4 (24:17):
So normally, um, quite quickly after starting to chat somebody, they will ask you to move to a different form of communication. So you might have started on a dating website for example, and they'll quite quickly get you to move to either your own emails or, um, WhatsApp or Google Hangouts. And part of the reason for that is because the messaging through those other, um, outlets is not monitored in the same way as a dating app would be. So, no, one's gonna pick up on the sort of things they're asking and the information that they're requesting. Um, very, very often there will be, um, really quite professional photos of somebody. And if it's not somebody asking for money because they're ill or there's bad luck stories about their family members, then normally it's someone who, uh, reports to be in a professional capacity, maybe a CEO, a business, or, um, or a doctor or a surgeon.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
We've seen that quite a lot. Um, and they will ask for money because perhaps for example, one lady had a, was chatting to a surgeon or so she thought he was in business with another surgeon who wasn't particularly good with money. So he needed her financial help to get himself back on an even keel oil rig workers is another really common one. So very often people will say they come from America, they're working on an oil rig in another country, but they need money for, um, for a project that they're running or in some cases for a helicopter flight to get off the rig. And then the promises are that they'll come and marry. You they'll bring their children. So for someone who's really lonely, they've got the potential of this quite nice looking professional person coming to be their partner and bringing children as well.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
You know that for somebody who is on their own and perhaps doesn't have their own family is, is honourable. So you can kind of see why someone would consider it to be genuine. Uh, but, but the warning signs are moving to the different communication sites. If you ask to see that person or meet them, they will give good, they'll give reasons at the last minute as to why you couldn't say Skype them and see them FaceTime them, um, in the meetings are often postponed. And again, it's probably due to a family illness or someone's died. So they're kind of all the warning signs
Speaker 2 (26:39):
And Simon, did you see, did you do video calls and things with these people, or did you only ever just see their photographs? What, you know,
Speaker 3 (26:47):
We only ever swap photos. I didn't do anything directly online, not even from the, the, the board people in Ghana. So everything was done online that way, which is not that clever when you look back and think it
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Suppose it's the way you can communicate with that's.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Well, in theory, yes. In practise now, not. So, I mean, I, I can chat with my sister in Florida. Uh, there were four of us, so now only her and myself left out of the whole family. And I don't have a son. So the, the family will die out as of my passing, as it were
Speaker 2 (27:48):
That wasn't something you were looking for. Was it when you were online, you didn't want be somebody or start a, you know, a new family or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I was very doing what I started taking of
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Silly question. The most part, I was gonna say, what is a frauders aim here? I'm guessing it's financial, but can there be any other reason for, for, for reaching out to people in the way they do?
Speaker 4 (28:16):
So the primary aim is to get money, large amounts of money, as much as they can. Um, in some say circumstances, they will also, uh, pass on any personal information that they've gained from somebody. So either passing it on or selling it.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah. I mean, this really came up because it muddled all three different people into the same group. They tried with Antonio, which is the one of just finished, but she was clever enough not to get involved with that.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
So you think they wanted some of your personal details as well?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
What sort of details did they ask you for?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Could be anything, anything out of, you know, I'm, I'm open enough to talk about everything that happened and I'm talking about over a 10 year period, Antonio I've, we've just folded up happened just before Christmas, two 12. And it's been going on ever since then,
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Would they ask you what sort of things would they ask you about yourself?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Literally, anything, whether it's on a, an overtly sexual way or whether it was on a process of what's going on, literally anything
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Would about anything to do with like, say your career, finances, bank details, anything like that?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Interesting. Uh, no, because on the whole they're too clever at asking questions too specifically asked. I think that's fair.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
What we tend to see is that if someone has been the victim of a scam, once the assumption with the scammers is that if somebody else approaches you, um, that you might full victim again, and that's what they're banking on, that your situation hasn't changed that you enjoy talking to them, or although you've realised they weren't genuine, perhaps somebody new coming in with a completely different story might seem genuine. So it's things like name, address, email, address, telephone numbers. That's the sort of information that would be shared with other scammers, because that's how they can link in with individuals
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And Kate. What would you say to, to other, there may be people out there now that have embroiled in a bit of a chat online that somebody it's, it's got to a point where they feel a bit in too deep, they've given so much money. It seems silly to walk away at this point. And there's the real desire and, and hope that that person is real. What would you say someone that might be in that situation in it, or indeed someone on the brink of feeling lonely, we've just had a pandemic where still in it, thinking about turning to, to, to online friendships and relationships, what would you say to those people?
Speaker 4 (31:25):
Okay. So firstly, for people that are find themselves in the situation that we are describing, first of all, tell somebody because it's really, really common for the scammers to tell you not to tell anybody else. So don't share with your friends or family, keep it to yourself. And that's quite a big burden to be carrying, especially if you have been sending money, because so
Speaker 3 (31:44):
When there's big sums of money,
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Yeah. And the longer it carries on the more difficult it can be to stop. So if you share it with friends and family who you might think will be cross, you know, will not be happy that you've, that you've sent money to somebody else. And, and personally, they, the individuals might feel a little bit ashamed that they've done that. And my advice would be don't feel that at all. So any caring family member or friend has your best interests at heart. So all they want to do is support you and help you. And very often to share that burden with somebody else takes a great relief, um, from the, the victim of the, um, anybody thinking about going into dating online, which is quite, it's quite common time after Christmas and the lead up to Valentine's day, you know, the sites are there for a reason, they are there to be used.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Um, just don't rush into things. You know, if people start to try and get you to move to a different, uh, platform, just take time to think about why they doing that, why you are not staying on the dating app. Um, I'm not trying to put people off using dating apps at all. You know, they, they serve a purpose, but they are sort of controlled and monitored by some of these other sites. Aren't. So I suppose if somebody tells you really quickly that they have strong feelings for you or that, and that they love you, having never met you, and probably only spoken to your hand 12 of times, again, you probably want to take a step back and think, you know, why do they think that about me? They've never met me. They know, limited information and just kind of just let things take time rather than rushing into something or be pressured into sending money.